Curse

Nevin · Feb 24, 2008, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Whats so funny is, 200 years are gunna pass between GW1 and GW2 yet people are still stubborn enough to think the world will remain the same? Please, quit being so ignorant, being "original" isn't always the most creative way to express a type of fiction. Why not say "if you don't want guns go play Lord of the rings online?". Not having guns in GW, hasn't made it anymore more unique than other MMO's and its not something people should be fighting against. Seriously, the only reason guns weren't implemented was probably because bows already were. With GW2, Anet now has the chance to rework things from the start.

This is probably the biggest oxymoron of them all though, the time separation. So okay, these people argue Tyria =/= Earth. Correct? Yet they still use the argument that Tyria is roughly around the beginning of the middle ages. Going by Earth's time line the BEGINNING of the middle ages is about 400-500 AD. Now this is a real rough patch though because technically people are still using clubs/bearskins/foraging and living nomadic life styles at this time; After all middle ages = dark ages until feudalism which began around 1500 AD. Now heres the fun part, guns are implemented by around 1200 AD; Gunpowder was used even earlier than that how ever. Going by the fact that GW is obviously not the beginning of the middle ages rather more middle, right on the break of gunpowder making its change from keg bombs to hand held weaponry. Also it was implemented tactically first by the Chinese and what not, but hmmm I suppose thats what the Canthans are for?

And no I'm not saying Earth and Tyria are one in the same. I'm simply going by the amount of technology, and how the civilizations are structured (that are present in GW) and applying it to the time line of Earth's.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Not entirely different. They've said they are keeping the 8 skill system.

Can I see that source? I thought they were still deciding on wether or not to keep the same number of skills.

Also I think guns can look cool in most MMO's, take Warhammer online for example.
Concept Art http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/...rs/WHnt_04.jpg
Screenshot http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/..._ss_empire.jpg

Now if you want an example of how guns look bad in an MMO, take WoW for example.
Screenshot http://wow.allakhazam.com/images/fashion/stae_gun.jpg

Mr. Undisclosed · Feb 24, 2008, 01:25 AM // 01:25

You know, I've always been really against the idea of guns in GW but after reading some of the OP's reasoning I can somewhat approve of the concept.

Biostem · Feb 24, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Since even the lowliest warrior could learn magic or pick up a wand to shoot projectiles, the demand for handheld firearms may never arise, even after 200 years. Think of it this way - guns arose in the real world to overcome the limitations and arduous training required to use a bow. What reason would anyone have to develop guns in GW? Magic and powerful creatures are everywhere. What could a rifle offer that current stuff can't offer already?

I'm not saying guns aren't possible in GW - in fact, all the groundwork is there. I'm just saying there's no driving force for it...

Nevin · Feb 24, 2008, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

Since even the lowliest warrior could learn magic or pick up a wand to shoot projectiles, the demand for handheld firearms may never arise, even after 200 years. Think of it this way - guns arose in the real world to overcome the limitations and arduous training required to use a bow. What reason would anyone have to develop guns in GW? Magic and powerful creatures are everywhere. What could a rifle offer that current stuff can't offer already?

I'm not saying guns aren't possible in GW - in fact, all the groundwork is there. I'm just saying there's no driving force for it...

Logically the next step would be crossbows. Different firing speed and damage, and different ammo which would be bolts. Guns are like skipping crossbows for an even different firing speed and damage, with a different ammo as bullets.

Now lets say (I'm going out on a limb here), Anet maybe gets inspired by that really popular engineer concept class posted in sardelic. (It did get a lot of approvals and what not). A logical weapon for that profession wouldn't be a bow, thats more so for skilled rangers. A gun how ever, fits in perfectly with the dwarven themed technology of that profession. Guns more or less aren't really a driving force, just something to fill the gap for professions that aren't going to be as skilled in "skill requiring" combat.

Once again it just seems like people are stuck in the GW1 mind set. For all we know professions may not even be how they are now. Perhaps instead there were be a branching tree like class definition process. Where you start out as a Fighter, Scout, or Caster- And upon reaching certain levels you are given the option to define your role to a more specific profession type up until the highest level?

Edit: I would like to take note that the engineer concept that I am talking about no longer seems to be in sardelic. It was posted back in 06 I believe. Anyways to sum it up, the profession started each environment with a pool of materials Gears, Bolts, and Wood. (or something like that) and skills worked as such... "Create Cannon Turret" requires 7 gears, 4 bolts, and 12 pieces of wood. The engineer would have a variety of skills revolving around his pool of materials, and once he depletes it he could no longer craft anymore. Thus he could then go and unbuild some of his creations to replenish his pool of materials. The skills encompassed many things though such as building gates, walls, or bombs/explosives that when blown up the materials would be left on the ground for the engineer to pick up. The gameplay mechanics would really add a new tactical element to GW.

Biostem · Feb 24, 2008, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

Logically the next step would be crossbows. Different firing speed and damage, and different ammo which would be bolts. Guns are like skipping crossbows for an even different firing speed and damage, with a different ammo as bullets.

Now lets say (I'm going out on a limb here), Anet maybe gets inspired by that really popular engineer concept class posted in sardelic. (It did get a lot of approvals and what not). A logical weapon for that profession wouldn't be a bow, thats more so for skilled rangers. A gun how ever, fits in perfectly with the dwarven themed technology of that profession. Guns more or less aren't really a driving force, just something to fill the gap for professions that aren't going to be as skilled in "skill requiring" combat.

I'm not arguing that your idea is wrong, but most of the dwarves you encounter don't seem interested in handheld ranged weapons, not to mention the fact that the dwarves are basically extinct after GWEN.

The only race vaguely interested in technology are the Asura, but they use magic as a power source; meaning gunpowder isn't likely to be in their bag of tricks.

Frankly, if I were to add gunpowder weapons to the game, it would be in the form of ranged traps (mortars, launchers, etc).

Mr. Undisclosed · Feb 24, 2008, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by some guy

What reason would anyone have to develop guns in GW?

Because almost all intelligent races love technology? Seriously, its something different and everyone wouldn want one. Intelligent beings are tech crazy, even if tis inefficent.

Biostem · Feb 24, 2008, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergeant Miyagi

Because almost all intelligent races love technology? Seriously, its something different and everyone wouldn want one. Intelligent beings are tech crazy, even if tis inefficent.

That doesn't really seem like a very strong rationale. If there was some push to develop firearms; some reason why bows & wands stopped working or became less effective, then I could see firearms becoming more popular. Think of it this way - when armor & fortifications became too strong for bows and siege engines to defeat, firearms were developed.

Bows and wands would have to become incapable of penetrating armor for firearms to come into play. The cases where we see black powder used in-game is where other methods aren't possible; Luxons have a lot of giant turtles, and their strength and build lends to being used as a weapons platform. They don't seem to have a lot of wood, so large wooden siege engines are out of the question. They do have a lot of jade, which I'm sure makes for good projectiles, though.

Again, I'm not against firearms, I just think that they shouldn't have both bows and firearms at the same time.

ensoriki · Feb 24, 2008, 02:04 AM // 02:04

firearms blow.

also firearms are meant to be 1 of the strongest weapons made.

Overthrowing the Bow,Spear,Sword/knife, Axe....well a lot of shit.

to have firearms in GW, means they have to be the strongest weapon, otherwise why would (humanity/sentient creatures) develop it?.

Now if other technical stuff became weapons...

It be fun to fight with a printer...

kerpall · Feb 24, 2008, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

also firearms are meant to be 1 of the strongest weapons made.

Modern firearms maybe, but this thread isnt about modern firearms, its about classical ones. early muskets, some of them i doubt would even be able to penetrate the armour of a warrior.

They could be compared to hit with the same force of an arrow. Depending on who's shooting the arrow or gun, and angle of fire, either could penetrate or deflect. A "gun" would simply be the "hammer" of rangers

Sword : Bow
Axe : Crossbow
Hammer: "gun" (slower loading, slightly larger dmg).

Although , you must all think outside of the box of "gun".
We think combustion based guns, because we know of nothing else in reality. However, the one thing Guildwars has and we don't is MAGIC!

IF any "gun-like" device were to be made, I can assure you it would be from the Asura. Some weirld "energy" shooting device, integrated into the core energy crystals used by GOLEM's.

In the quest/mission (from eye of the north) Bloodstone Caves, they attempt to extract a high-energy mineral. This maybe being the building stones of a new technology.

Biostem · Feb 24, 2008, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerpall

Modern firearms maybe, but this thread isnt about modern firearms, its about classical ones. early muskets, some of them i doubt would even be able to penetrate the armour of a warrior.

They could be compared to hit with the same force of an arrow. Depending on who's shooting the arrow or gun, and angle of fire, either could penetrate or deflect. A "gun" would simply be the "hammer" of rangers

Sword : Bow
Axe : Crossbow
Hammer: "gun" (slower loading, slightly larger dmg).

Although , you must all think outside of the box of "gun"
We think combustion based guns, because we know of nothing else in guildwars. However, the one thing Guildwars has and we don't is MAGIC!

IF any "gun-like" device were to be made, I can assure you it would be from the Asura. Some weirld "energy" shooting device, integrated into the core energy crystals used by GOLEM's.

In the quest/mission (from eye of the north) Bloodstone Caves, they attempt to extract a high-energy mineral. This being the building stones of a new technology.

A magical equivalent to guns is already in game - staves & wands.

IMO, the gun would have a damage range much like a scythe - a large damage range would best reflect the unpredictable nature of firearms. A crossbow, if anything, would have the smallest range of damage due to its consistency in delivering a projectile.

To be hones, things like black powder bombs, mines, mortars, etc, would seem to fit more than a musket, let alone a rifle...

ensoriki · Feb 24, 2008, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

To be hones, things like black powder bombs, mines, mortars, etc, would seem to fit more than a musket, let alone a rifle...

Ho shit we so need bombs

I want to be bomberman!

kerpall · Feb 24, 2008, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

A magical equivalent to guns is already in game - staves & wands.

IMO, the gun would have a damage range much like a scythe - a large damage range would best reflect the unpredictable nature of firearms. A crossbow, if anything, would have the smallest range of damage due to its consistency in delivering a projectile.

To be hones, things like black powder bombs, mines, mortars, etc, would seem to fit more than a musket, let alone a rifle...

Gun-like devices would be held horizontally, unlike staves and wands held vertically. Also staves and wands are used to direct the flow of magic through (aka your spells) , they alone are not meant to be used for dealing damage (unless u wish to do like 10dmg to mobs).
Added: Bow is to weapon, as Staff is to tool

A gun-like device with the range of a scythe? thats a bit short, i would say about the range of a shortbow (maybe a bit less). If you want a gun-like device to have the range of a scythe, then the only thing that would fit such a descriptino would be like a flamethrower. Which could fit the lore of GW, (istani fire kegs) + a simple pump + a small candle at the end = flamethrower.
Although thats just silly.

The asuran guns i'm referring to, would use unstable gems as power sources, and shoot more of a beam (maybe orbs?). Like the Bow, and Not like the staff. It would have skills under "ranged attack mastery" , unlike the staff which has no skills under "staff mastery".

It's basically a stronger version of Bow, but lower attack time.

ensoriki · Feb 24, 2008, 02:59 AM // 02:59

staff mastery would of been a monk beating the shit out of someone with a wooden stick not shooting circles out of a stick.

when he says range of a scythe he means Damage Range not Attack range.

Also....god, forget guns.

Any other technology (other than an atom bomb/nuclear bomb) but not a firearm.

How about someone who fights with lamp posts? or a dude who fights by running people over in his Honda civic.

[M]agna_[C]arta · Feb 24, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Yuna

Then how about giant robots and UFOs, if you don't think so "hey, it's fiction! we could let the necromancers create robots and UFOs instead of minions!"

No, the change is simple too drastic for a game like this. Why? Because:
1) the theme is more or less the beginning of Middle Ages, so guns doesn't exist then.
2) It will take who knows how long for people to get used to this change, as it affects a whole 2 classes[warriors and rangers and on that note, literally ALL of the classes, it isn't too difficult to learn how to insert a bullet and shoot it out now is it?].
3) There will be a need of skill change. A set of GUN skills must be added unless you make the guns shoot 60s and 90s without using a skill, which defeats the purpose of skills in GW.
4) From what you're saying you sound like you want to replace bows by guns. What's the point? your precious warrior MAY look a tiny bit nicer carrying a mini nuke launcher(hey! it's fiction!) than a bow but, the reward(if there is any) is simply not worth the hassle.

And why are you SO keen in getting guns into GW? If you're so addicted to guns, play games like Halo 3, Ghost Recon, Battlefield.... etc. And if you're too addicted to GW to do that, simple solution, get drunk and delete GW permanently and smash all the GW installation cds you have (so you can't just reinstall it back on). And when you get somber, all there is left is one quick swing of anger and then you're right on to Halo 3, seeing your precious guns![Am I just......great? You know, been SO helpful to you and everything]

Sorry, I thought this Thread went down already.Cause no one posted for a while.

Necromancers don't Summon Robots kay^^, and they don't even have UFOs.
Asuran Vehicles can replace if you want UFOs^^.
And the Weaponry I imagined was in the Olden Times, Flintlocks, anyone?
And why do people keep on adding Halo3 or sumting, It's quite pointless.

We may not have, Firearms in those Times but it is possible for GW to have it, especially GW2.
Nor swing hammers and pull arrows and release?
That can be easily Ballanced, hey if they were able to ballance Meteor Showers why not this? The Meteor Shower is less believable than Bullets, And why do Bullets have to deal that much damage anyway? And what you doing is like Compaing a Hammer with a Scythe.
Bows and Guns can live in same roof, Bows can be the Fast Type while the Gun can be the Slow yet Strong Type.

And please check this post of mine on how to ballance, Guns with Bows also other weapons.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=128

-Loki- · Feb 24, 2008, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

Can I see that source? I thought they were still deciding on wether or not to keep the same number of skills.

When I get time, I'll dig through the interviews I read where they said they were keeping the 8 skill system.

ensoriki · Feb 24, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by [M]agna_[C]arta

[*]That can be easily Ballanced, hey if they were able to ballance Meteor Showers why not this? The Meteor Shower is less believable than Bullets, And why do Bullets have to deal that much damage anyway? And what you doing is like Compaing a Hammer with a Scythe.[*]Bows and Guns can live in same roof, Bows can be the Fast Type while the Gun can be the Slow yet Strong Type.[/LIST]And please check this post of mine on how to ballance, Guns with Bows also other weapons.

meteor showers arent all that deadly...hell most meteors or is that meteoroids never touch the ground because they disintegrate >.<....well they are kinda deadly but its magic meteors not space meteors.

guns are faster than bows.

The game doesn't really need anymore times of weapons anyways.

If anything new comes in.
Its either
Bombs (bomberman rules)
Stale bread wielding chef .

Also that suggestion >.<

.....why even bother making it then if they're that similar.

Might as well just make Horn bows stronger than every other bow and be done with it.

Lady Yuna · Feb 24, 2008, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by [M]agna_[C]arta

Sorry, I thought this Thread went down already.Cause no one posted for a while.

Necromancers don't Summon Robots kay^^, and they don't even have UFOs.
Asuran Vehicles can replace if you want UFOs^^.
And the Weaponry I imagined was in the Olden Times, Flintlocks, anyone?
And why do people keep on adding Halo3 or sumting, It's quite pointless.

We may not have, Firearms in those Times but it is possible for GW to have it, especially GW2.
Nor swing hammers and pull arrows and release?
That can be easily Ballanced, hey if they were able to ballance Meteor Showers why not this? The Meteor Shower is less believable than Bullets, And why do Bullets have to deal that much damage anyway? And what you doing is like Compaing a Hammer with a Scythe.
Bows and Guns can live in same roof, Bows can be the Fast Type while the Gun can be the Slow yet Strong Type.

And please check this post of mine on how to ballance, Guns with Bows also other weapons.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=128

1) I believed you want guns in GW, if I'm mistaken, my bad end of story
2) So every weapon can be fitted to every class?
3) Fable 2 would have guns you know?
And I think people are hyped bout it XP!

And the Guns were talking bout are the First-Age of Firearms.
Check Granado Espada or the Fable 2 Trailer. that's what I am talking bout.

Just increase the Recharge time to 25, then it's not.
And decrease the Damage to +5-29 Damage^^.
No need for Deep Wound just Cracked Armor.

Claymore Shot
-Bullet Attack, 10e|1c|25r : Deal +5-29 Damage to Foes within Radius, If blocked this causes Crack Armor for 1-5 seconds. This Skill has 20% of Backfire (Ranks 4 or below, Chance 50%, Ranks 6 or Below, Chance 30%)

I just find Bullets faster than Arrows.
But the Guns Refire is Slow.
Let's say,

Bow
Piercing Damage 12-28
Refire Rate 2.4 seconds
Flight Time 0.59 seconds

Firearm
Piercing Damage 10-30
Refire Rate 3.66 seconds
Flight Time 0.25 seconds

A Bow could deal 25 Damage every 3 seconds.
While a Firearm could deal 25 Damage every 4 seconds.
But the Firearm is less likely, To miss.
And cause of the size of the Bullet is can be Blocked Easily.

Seems ballanced to me, and the Normal Hit of the Firearm is 25 cause of the Large distance between it's Maximum and Minimum Damage.

What'ya think?

But the Exploding Firearm is like this:

Exploding Firearm
Piercing Damage 9-31
Refire Rate 4.33 seconds
Flight Time 0.15 seconds
Able to Hit up to 3 Foes (within 125 Radius)
Range 1 (.05 lesser Range than a Shortbow)

Have I ballanced it^^?

No, you have not, not for GW (I DO agree that this MIGHT be possible in GW2...but who knows). Do you honestly think THAT will be enough for the 1 million players in GW? that's like...giving a entire country enough food for a state. People will soon get bored of it and the gun will become another pointless feature in the current GW.
4) yeah keep cut down to the details.....soon we will have things like: hand gun-medium fast type, shotgun-slow medium type......then GW would literally explode with all sort of guns.

On a side note, Halo 3 FTW period.

Carta baby, your wasting your strength, Anet will not put guns into the GW right now, and people doesn't seem to like this idea in GW anyways.

kerpall · Feb 24, 2008, 03:53 AM // 03:53

@ Lady Yuna

Bow
Piercing Damage 12-28
Refire Rate 2.4 seconds
Flight Time 0.59 seconds

Firearm
Piercing Damage 10-30
Refire Rate 3.66 seconds
Flight Time 0.25 seconds

this is what i was getting at with the Bow : sword ratio, and the Hammer : gun ratio ^^.

except made easier to understand the way you explained it.

As for types of firearms, this would help make a variety.

main hand = gun
offhand = ammo type (piercing, blunt, slashing, etc damage)
Flintlock sounds most likely, but i prefer the idea of a "high-low tech" asuran gun. (high tech to GW , but bulky and un economical. Kinda of like a crazy invention that they have yet to find a good use for).

ADDED:

Although this beast would have a "constant flowing beam" , and simply do damage every 1.5 or 2 seconds ( or same as rate of fire of bow, except bit fast maybe, with lower dmg?)

Gun Pierson · Feb 24, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Guns or no guns in this game is a personal preference.

At this point though the technology has already been discovered by the luxons, namely the 'siege turtle'.

As you can see on the pic it has a cannon, a stack of (jade) balls and I see some barrels hanging, common sense makes me think about gunpowder or a magical powder of some sort. There's a stair at the back of the turtle that leads to the back of the cannon to ignite it.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Image:Siege_Turtle.jpg

So we have a powder cannon in the game. A powder gun would possibly fit imo but nothing more at this point. Could have been a new profession.

[M]agna_[C]arta · Feb 24, 2008, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Please Quote my Post^^.
And how are you sure people would get tired of Guns.
And what's the diff with other Weaponry, And no one would be tired of it.
How can a person get tired of Guns, If they don't get tired of Swords, Bows and Staves, why should Guns be exhausting?

What you said seems illogical.

And if you hate guns then don't get guns, Same as like "I don't want to be a Necro I wanna be a Good-Loving Monk" XP.